Inclusive Capitalism AND Business

Ilham Kadri: Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Mo Ibrahim, who is truly a great businessman, philanthropist, and climate justice advocate to the podcast. He is the founder and chair of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation, which improves lives by advocating for good governance and exceptional leadership in Africa. He founded two major companies, Mobile Systems International, a world leading cellular consulting and software provider, and CellTel International, one of Africa's leading mobile telephone companies. As a business leader, who does so much good in the world, he is a perfect example of the power of AND. Dr. Ibrahim, thank you so much for joining me today.

Mo Ibrahim: Thank you very much for having me and I'm still blushing after hearing your very kind words.

Upbringing and the making of a leader

Ilham Kadri: You should not Mo, welcome. Marhaba. I'm so glad, thrilled, excited, because obviously you come from the same continent as I. And, because you've been a role model for many African-born people. So I'd like to start off, and I always start by asking, where did it all begin for you? I know you were born in Sudan and you grew up in Cairo. By the way, you speak Arabic, and we chatted about it earlier. And I know as a child, you dreamed of becoming a scientist. And Albert Einstein was your role model. We have that in common. I was the same as a child. I dream of becoming a scientist as well. And my role model was Marie Curie. Can you tell us a bit about your upbringing, Mo, and how that shaped the kind of leader you are today?

Mo Ibrahim: Well, let me start by saying I'm delighted to be just like you and we both dreamt of being scientists. The only difference is that you succeeded and you became a great scientist, while I failed actually, and became a businessman. 

Ilham Kadri: Oh our audience will love to fail like you, Mo. 

Mo Ibrahim: I always sort of hold scientists and thinkers, I mean, in high esteem, really.  Well, I, yes, I'm Sudanese. I'm actually a Nubian Sudanese. I come from the extreme north of Sudan. And I grew up actually in Alexandria. And that's why I love the Mediterranean, actually. It's a beautiful place to grow up. And we grew up in a, like, lower middle class family, I mean, we were not poor, I mean, we never went to bed without dinner, but what was very inspiring for me It's really the cohesion of the Nubian community in Alexandria and how people looked after each other and that concept of extended family, of social responsibility to others, I think was very, very impressive to me. I always say you cannot succeed if your people around you are failing. We go together, and we have a very famous African proverb, which says, If you want to travel fast, you travel alone, but if you travel far, you better travel together. 

An accidental businessman

Ilham Kadri: Yeah. And I often mention it's actually alone you go faster together you go further. You're right. You famously call yourself more of an accidental businessman and I love the story of how you went from starting your own company from your desk at home. To eventually found Cell Tell, which provides mobile phone service across Sub-Sahara Africa when everyone thought it was invisible, impossible, it's Africa. Can you tell us about How did it started? which I believe was influenced by particularly inspiring Taxi Ride.

Mo Ibrahim: As a young engineer, I was having a period of internship at the ITU in Geneva, the International Telecom Union. And at that time, an interesting movie called Cartoon was just been released, a beautiful movie about About Sudan, and General Gordon, and Mehdi. And I, I was late, I'm trying to go there, you know, before the film starts, so I took a taxi, I don't usually take a taxi at that time, because I didn't have much money, And it was a plush, nice, Remember Renault car, you know, this is a big one, and But then the driver was talking over the radio, the dispatch radio, and I haven't seen that before, and That's something that was not common, I'm talking about 1970. So I asked the driver, I said, how are you able to establish communication? I said, really, I don't know. I mean, they just gave me this stuff. I press the button here and I speak. And because at that time, I mean, as an, I was a telecom engineer and always over radio, you need to establish a line of sight to, to have reliable communication. How could you do that? That captured my imagination, really.

The important work of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation

Ilham Kadri: You are listed in Times Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World. And thanks to your significant impact on the telecom industry in the world, and specifically in Africa, on the promotion of good governance as well, and leadership across the continent

Let's talk about your philanthropy and I, you know, I, my grandma, Moroccan one who with whom I grew up and raised me, she always told me, you know, the day and we came from a poor and humble, you know, background, she always taught me, and maybe it's African, that when you take something and when people give you something or a nation or, or school, you need to think about giving back.

And I mean, I interviewed many people and many are philanthropy is part of their lives, but yours, I mean, it's extremely central to your life. And after you created all your successful companies, you were inspired to start the Mo Ibrahim Foundation, which focuses on improving the lives of Africans by encouraging good governance and leadership.

And being an African, we know Africa is very last emerging continent available to the world, actually, for more technology, for more prosperity, etc. but needs governance, needs leadership. And the foundation awards the Ibrahim Prize, which celebrates excellence in African leadership. And it also produces the Ibrahim Index of African Governance.

Can you tell our listeners, how did you think about this? And more about the important work of the foundation?

Mo Ibrahim: Yeah, you see it happened when we started to work in Africa and to build our mobile networks. From day one, we said we would not pay the bribes. And everybody says we don't pay bribes, and then they hire consultants to go and pay the bribes on their behalf and say it's nothing to do with me. so, we had to introduce the bribe procedure

And we discovered actually, you can do business without paying bribes, because if you listen to some Western business people or Chinese business people who say, Oh, no, no, no, we cannot do anything in Africa without. This is absolute rubbish. This is nonsense. Because we built mobile networks in 15 countries.

We were the largest taxpayers in 9 countries. Because we were paying our taxes there. Anyway so traveling around Africa, dealing with the government, dealing with our employees, with people, customers, et cetera, you start to wonder why African people are poor. You see very lush countries, abundance of resources, and why are we poor?

The content is very rich and is very much under populated, actually. And so we had when we sold the company, The first decision was, I'm going to give all the money made in Africa back to African people. I have enough because from the first company, we made enough money for me and my children, so that's fine.

Now, any money over there, we'll give it back to Africa. The question was how to give back. Those people like Bill Gates doing wonderful things in health and people doing malaria nets and people doing this, which was great, wonderful. But the question was, why do those people need charity? You know, they shouldn't need charity and are they going to be always on people giving us baby's milk and, and, and, and malaria nets and vaccines.

And we had a discussion at the time of, I had a very wide consultation with maybe 40 or 50. different kinds of leaders from Mandela, Kofi Annan at the time was head of UN, a lot of interesting people. We had very intensive discussions, and to get to the conclusion, look, the most effective thing to do now is to help Africa to get out of this rut, and to get out of this rut, we cannot do it without good government.

The Africa is backward because of huge mismanagement. Mismanagement of our resources, mismanagement of our people, our human resources, and that has to change. We need better leadership, and that has to change. 

Anyway, so that was our dream, and that's how we started really the foundation.

Ilham Kadri: This is amazing because indeed being African, you said it, we have all the resources required for the continent. And again, that's why I call it the very last emerging continent, the whole world needs. And, you know, by the way, I was very interested to see that my country of birth and Morocco, right, moved up to the eight slots in the latest index. Due to good governance, can you tell us what does it take for country to make such big strides like that?

Mo Ibrahim: Right, I mean, the index really, when we talk about governance, we don't want To talk poetry, or Government needs to be defined. And he breaks that down to four main pillars. which, one is rule of law and safety of citizens. This is an important deliverable by the government. Only the government can deliver that. Then there's the economic piece. And then there is a question of rights of citizens the transparency, etc. And then there is of course human development, health, education, etc. Under this comes so many parameters. We measure over 100 parameters in every country. And because then we can quantify governance. We can measure. We need a scoring card. And so that's how we produce this index. In the case of Morocco, Morocco moved well over the last few years. And as you said, it moved from 13 to 8 now, which is great. And more interesting, I mean, in out of 16 subcategories, under the four categories, there are 16 subcategories. They improved 13 out of 16 categories over the last year, 10 years, which is impressive. Morocco now is number one, ranks number one in the development of infrastructure. So, that really is, it is a great statement. So, well done.

Ilham Kadri: And I can, I mean, it's great to have an index, a neutral index, you know, benchmarking is important. I'm a business lady as well, but when I travel indeed, I don't recognize Morocco. I left, I was 17. So a while ago, and frankly, I'm just flabbergasted by the infrastructure from, you know, high speed trains to, you know, obviously air traffic to actually even the youth. 

Africa and the fight against climate change

We're going to switch gears and we just had the COP 29 and I know your foundation has done a lot to bring attention to the effect of climate change which is affecting Africa as well. And of course the continent has been hit quite hard, and during your speech at the Paris Peace For you talked about Africa's positive contribution to climate action. You say that, and I quote, Africa has the majority of all the natural resources needed for the green economy, and you say that Africa is a crucial part of the solution, and in no way the cause of the problem. And I couldn't agree more. And I know that the Mo Ibrahim Foundation often releases reports on climate change with a specific focus on Africa. Can you tell us more about some of those findings and more about how Africa could play such an important role in the fight against climate change?

Mo Ibrahim: Right, to start with besides, I mean, we focus, of course, on governance and leadership. But it is also important, I mean, our governance does not happen in a vacuum. And it's also affected, well, not affected, but happening around us. We can have good governance in Africa when our friends there are not really doing well or behaving properly.

Ilham Kadri: Absolutely.

Mo Ibrahim: We cannot fight corruption. If Europe does not fight corruption too, because African leaders don't corrupt themselves. Their partners are business people and analysis guys. So we need good governance in business, we need good governance from our partners. And then we found that one important thing we need to do is for us also to act as a think tank. So we produce regular reports.about agriculture, about food, civil service in Africa, etc. But also about climate. And we produced it before COP. the idea with these reports was 1) to make the case for Africa in the climate debate. We were very worried in the past years that Africa was completely by, but Africa had no voice in the debate about climate and that was really disturbing. And so we started about four years ago, then paying attention to this area and culminated in helping President Rucho in Kenya. to have this conference just before COP28 in Dubai to produce We wanted African leaders, when they go to COP, they all read from the same script. Unless we have one voice, what we're doing is reproducing noise. Fifty four different voices equals noise. Any engineer will tell you that.

Ilham Kadri: Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: Okay, so we need coherence. And so we need to agree what is the issues for Africa. And we have a number of issues concerning climate justice, concerning how we're going to move into this green age, what we're going to do with our resources, et cetera.

And, as you said, we really have great assets. I mean, we have probably 35 percent or 40 percent of all the minerals needed for the green transition, and probably we're squandering most of this. This is a huge asset. If we really use that, that's a huge leverage. And unfortunately, because, unfortunately, many of these assets happen to be in countries which has problems with governance. So that was on the other hand, Africa also is a great thing for carbon. We have one of the largest sinks in the Congo Basin actually, which sinks probably 3 percent of the annual emission, which is almost as much as what Africa emits. So Africa actually is, is net zero already. Okay, and we think it's important.

Now Africa is growing very fast in terms of population and as Africa develops, if Africa doesn't develop in a green path, there will be a huge impact on emissions. That's why it's important for us to really develop in the right way. And so there's a big argument here why we need really a good path forward, which help solve problems and not, not create problems.

And as I said, we are really, we did not put this stuff up there. Some other people did. At the moment, we're already at net zero and we need to continue to be at net zero. And we have been asking always for a global carbon tax, because without global carbon tax. I don't think you're going to solve this problem.

People keep inventing this trading scheme, et cetera, because they're avoiding the real issue, which is, if you use it, you pay for it. And that's what will stop people.

Sustainability AND profitability 

Ilham Kadri: You said many things. You said you acted the think tank, but I think from what we've seen from you and we hear from you now loud and clear is that you are a do tank. You are not just a think. And, and, and, and frankly, I love that. There are many people who are thinkers and, and, and, you know, we love them, but I love as well people who are doing, and, and that's what you inspire people like me. And I loved what you said about, I've never seen it this way, you know, Africa is 54 nations and, and you say we need unity if not is a noise, although it's not uniform because all Africa is very expensive as continent is large and you know, but if there is one voice, this is harmony. And, and the last point is about net zero, which is important, obviously, to all of us. So, as you know more, this podcast is about how we can do things at the same time in harmony and things which can appear in opposition. So we started with, with how we can ensure our companies are both sustainable and profitable. And you are the perfect example leader to talk about this because you are a successful business leader and someone who has done incredible good in the world. I know you would see the two going hand in hand, and that's why I'm so thrilled and honored to have you today. And I've heard you say. That business is essentially a force for good, and you and I are both on the B team, which is a group of business leaders who want to create better companies that work for the well being of the people in a planet full of resources. So what do you think business leaders should focus on more to achieve both sustainability and profitability? 

Mo Ibrahim: Yeah, I think business really should act responsibly and their eye should be on the prize and the long term and sustainability. And as I said earlier on, you cannot succeed if, if things around you are failing. I mean, you have no future for your business. And we need to understand also what's at the summit of this new world, new regime, which will be carbon free, hopefully going forward. It creates opportunity also for us, and we need to understand that business as usual is not, is not really sustainable anymore. And many business leaders are coming now to understand this. And of course, there will always be a pushback. There will always be these campaigns of hatred and misinformation. Ultimately truth will always conquer the falsehood. Ultimately, we will be able to convey our messages. We are heading for disaster. It's taking place right now. Because of all this weather. Catastrophes taking place around us. What's happening in Spain, what's happening actually in the United States. And how actually many houses now became uninsurable.

Ilham Kadri: mm hmm.

Mo Ibrahim: It is, there's a huge cost. And you see, and that unfortunately, what we are unable yet to articulate. The cost of doing nothing is huge. And this bill will go up all the time. And that is higher than the cost of doing things. So, we need to put this message forward. And as business, we are part of this. In order to achieve sustainability, we need to move with the time.

In your business, you prove that you can do good, but still time to be profitable. To be profitable is an entrancing part of doing business. You are not a business if you are not profitable. You are not sustainable. So, you have to be profitable. And then, you also have to try to be good as well. I give you a simple example about the good and the bad.

In my discussion with a lot of business people when I was working in Africa, was that, look, a little bribe can help me, you know, we demonstrated to people actually, that actually, bribes can end up breaking your business. I used to say to my friends in our arguments there, you know, what happened, if I give a bribe to the regulator to, in order to give me some advantage here or there, next morning, the Minister of Telecom will come. Then the president will come ask for something, and then the wife of  the president will come. Then the mistress of the president will come. Then, you know, and government. And want to start paying bribes, you cannot stop. Because the new guys coming to say, Okay, what's wrong with me? You gave to the old guys, what about me?

We say, look, you will continue to bleed. If you do things right, you don't need to do anything. But what we can do, we can do a massive social enterprise in our countries. We want to be the most loved company in the country. So what can you do? Each CEO in each country will have to report to us monthly about the four, we call them the four stakeholders.

What happened to the shareholders? What happened to our employees? The second stakeholders in the company. Then our customers, we consider them as stakeholders in our company. Then our community. What have we done to these four stakeholders? That was a monthly report of every CEO, and to ensure we're doing the right thing for all four stakeholders.

And that was 25 years ago, before even people start to talk about popular capitalism, or inclusive capitalism. That's what we have done on the ground, actually.

The importance of inclusive capitalism

Ilham Kadri: What you are saying is really important. This climate change has a huge cost and sometimes, Visible, and yet the worst to come because there are a lot of consequences. So you talked about the inclusive capitalism and the idea of it which you say when I, when I listened to you in your interviews you said you've learned from your upbringing in Africa, which resonates in me as an African Moroccan lady. And in Africa, there is an emphasis on caring for your neighbors. I'm not sure if we, we live and we are. wired with more empathy.  And I know you've done various initiatives to ensure your employees had a stake in the business and share in its success. Can you explain what you did and what does inclusive capitalism mean to you?

Mo Ibrahim: I really used to think of all our employees as business partners. And I used to say, look, guys, either we succeed together or fail together. So, that's how it happens. And every employee, every employee in any of my companies was a shareholder. We ensure that everybody become a shareholder. And when we sold the first company, which was MSI, I think we created about 50 millionaires.

When we sold the second company, CELTEN maybe 150 employees became millionaires. And many of those people went on to start their own business. And so the employee's block of shares was one of the largest always in our companies. But that create a different atmosphere in the company. I don't need to check on anybody because everybody has a stake in the company.

People feel ownership and that changes the atmosphere in the company People, people just do things. you know what? I don't think, as an investor, ever, ever lose money. By giving shares to your employees, you make more money. And that was interesting from a hard lying capitalist to say, Look guys, I make more money, please give this guy shares. And that was, that was very interesting. It's important for people to really share in the fruit of their work.

Ilham Kadri: And you've been, in a way, more a pioneer on that because I followed your path and you inspired me. We put together a shareholding program. We did this back in 2021 and people thought it's going to be an anecdote. And, and having skin in the game, as you say.

You don't need to ask. People are engaged. They feel, and I got during my town halls, I think one of the best moments in my life in a town hall was when one of our employee blue collar stood up and said, Miss Kadri, I have a question for you, not as an employee, but as a shareholder. So I said, yeah, you are my boss

Mo Ibrahim: Wonderful.

Leadership advice

Ilham Kadri: So what leadership advice would you give to young people, leaders who are listening to us today, who want to make a difference in the world?

Mo Ibrahim: That's a difficult question actually. I usually hate giving advice to people because it's rather paternalistic, you know, as if you have this monopoly over wisdom and you're dishing it out to other people. I think,

Ilham Kadri: But imagine you are that African wise man we like to hear from.

Mo Ibrahim: No, I think that the best advice maybe I'll give to anybody is just do to others, maybe what you like others do to you. In other way, always put yourself in other person's shoes. And that will change the way you look at things. And it's very important that the way you act today, what you do today, imagine yourself 30 years later on, if you become a successful and greater man. If what you're doing today came out to light, will you be ashamed? Think about that.

Recharging the batteries

Ilham Kadri: It's beautiful advice. It's what I call the legacy, right? With how people are going to remember you, what you've done and what you didn't do and what you didn't say. So those are the acts. That's why I like to think about you as a do tank, not to think tank at all. So let us finish with maybe a bit of lighter notes. We try you know, prepare this podcast and try to get to know you outside the foundation, outside business. And it's very difficult actually to trace back, although our lives in is, is in is digital these days. How do you recharge the batteries, inspire yourself? Outside the foundation and the, and the, and the work and the businesses you, you led so wonderfully.

Mo Ibrahim: I think three things I found really, really quite, really relaxing and wonderful. One is to sail in the summer. I have a boat I go out in the summer and I just love to be in the Mediterranean on the water. And the best time I sleep on the water. The best conversations I have with anybody on the water. It's just, it's just, it's amazing. I cannot wait for the summer to be on the water again. Something about the Mediterranean. I just love it.

Ilham Kadri: Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: I think we came from water, you know

Ilham Kadri: Yeah. We are water. We are water. Our body.

Mo Ibrahim: But that is one thing I like. The second thing is I enjoy. Also playing golf. I'm not by any means a good golfer because I started very late when I had time to play golf, so I'll never be a good player, but I really enjoy being a local because for three, four hours, you cannot think of anything else other than this little ball. You're trying, you know, hopefully to get in that little hole.there's a couple of things really I enjoy most.

Ilham Kadri: And I know that you are inspiring and mentoring many people around you. I thank you so much, Mo, for joining me today. You have touched so many lives, people's lives, both through your businesses, obviously, and we heard this many has built also prosperity along with your, with you, but equally and I, I should say equally through the amazing work of the foundation and I'm so inspired I've been always inspired, but so inspired by this conversation. I'm sure our listeners will be too. Thank you again for everything you are doing for Africa and for the world and make the world a better place, Mo. Thank you.

Mo Ibrahim: Bye bye. Thanks.